[Info] Bard Awareness

Par Alakhnor le 4/6/2002 à 18:21:00 (#1591805)

Des screens de la journée de protestation sur Pendragon qui apparemment s'est bien passée.

http://irondwarves.netfirms.com/

Et le rappel du manifeste préparé par Stryhf :

Summary
Bards as a class excel in Player vs. Environment (PvE). Practically all Bards and most classes in Hibernia agree that a Bard makes an exceptional passive support class. The main issue that arises is the lack of active abilities in Realm vs. Realm, especially those which pertain to the Bard's survivability.

The most significant active ability Bards bring to RvR is Area of Effect Mesmerize (AE Mez). With this onus placed upon Bards, this also makes Bard the highest priority target. It is sound tactically to disable the opponents ability for Crowd Control (CC) at the onset of battle. Once in melee range, Bards are considered one of the easiest classes to kill with minimal risk. In order to serve in our support role, Bards need close proximity to our group mates, which creates a conundrum. If we stay, we're very likely killed, if we flee, we cannot serve as either CC or support.

There have several proposed changes to sleep code spells, especially some directly targetted at Mez, which lower its impact on RvR. The most significant impact upon Bards has gone live, that of the 60second immunity from same type sleep spells. Bards have only one option when it comes to RvR sleep, and one immunity type limits this versatile class, both offensively and defensively.

Bardic Concerns
* Bards are still lacking defensively in RvR
* Bards are not proportionately rewarded for RvR
* Bards and Empathy
* Confusion has very little effect upon RvR
* Viability of Melee Spec for Bards
* Further issues with instruments
* Interface issues
* Proposed Solutions

* Bards are still lacking defensively in RvR
The Bard's most significant offensive and defensive weapon is Mez. Of all the AE Mez classes and Musician-based classes, Bards are still the only class with only one form of sleep and no option of insta/quick/shout cast for these spells. Of all the classes with Mez, they are the only class with no other form of sleep spell (stun, root or even snare). After the next patch, Bards will be the only Naturalist based class without Scale, and the only Reinforced wearer without Evade III. None of these issues is a "show stopper", but when you add them all up it equates to a class with very little defensive options. On top of this, Bards are the easiest to identify on the RvR battlefield due to their instruments and their musicial notes. Heals are allowed to remove Mez, specifically, which makes this form of sleep, the only one that Bards possess, uniquely targetted for reduction in power.

* Bards are not proportionately rewarded for RvR
On top of the fact that Bards will not see Realm Points for all the targets they were able to stop via their Mez, the rewards granted to the class are less then stellar. There appears to be much confusion on what function the Bard class serves. The player perception does not match the changes that have been presented to the class, and this has caused quite a stir among the Bardic community. Are we spellcasters? The RvR rewards granted to Bards is almost a carbon copy of the Druidic list, and yet neither class is granted Mastery of Concentration. Are we deft Musicians? Although we share light armor, and greater Evade, we are not granted Dodger. Maybe we are meant to melee somewhat? We are not granted either First Aid or Ignore Pain similiar to other melee classes. It was explicitly said that RvR rewards were meant to bridge the gap and add to classes which suffered in the balance department. The disparity in the Bard rewards is huge, since the rewards do not coincide with how the populace plays this class.

* Bards and Empathy
The number of Bards who allocated points into Empathy is too long to list. The issue is that new Bards are still not warned that their primary statistic is Charisma. When they choose to play a Naturalist, they are told that Empathy has an important part in their character development. The character screen should be changed to reflect future class decisions, this is not only a Bard issue, but it does hit Bards quite hard since it is an error on the primary statistic.

* Confusion has very little effect upon RvR
Confusion still has very limited use in RvR, the only noticable effect is the complete neutralization of Theurgist pets. In PvE, the Mob used to warp around, possibily aggro'ing new mobs, and warp in a Northerly direction. Bards would like to know if there are any near term plans for this spell. It is understood the complexity involved with a spell that could quite literally flip the scales of balance, but Confusion is one of the few abilities granted to Bards in their Music spec line.

* Viability of Melee Spec for Bards
Currently, the only ability available to Bards in Melee is their Direct Damage Shout and Amnesnia (which has very limited usage). Unlike the other musician classes, Bards are limited to a single DD shout on a 10 second timer. In theory this provides similiar damage/time as other classes, but less versatility (which is self-evident in RvR). The Bard is relatively unique in that there are several options in which to pursue, yet few of the abilities compliment each other in the RvR sense.

* Further issues with instruments
Statistic bonuses on instruments are working, yet the issue arising is how useful are these bonuses to Bards? Charisma which grants an increase to the Power Pool is only marginally useful since Bards tend to swap out instruments quite often (whereas +power or +hit points would be more beneficial). Any statistic bonuses other then resists are intangible at best. Bards feel the most signifiant advantage of high level quests which grant instruments such as West Wind and Touch of the Amadan Dubh is the experience rewarded. In a previous patch release note, West Wind was supposed to reward Bards a ring, this has not happened, and still no followup statement has been issued.

* Interface issues
Swapping of instruments add a frustration factor to a game which has attempted to minimize such issues. This problem is further complicated during RvR, when having to juggle between 2-3 hotkey bar sets, when time is of the essense. Proposals include either having songs check equipped instruments and auto-equip them. Or else having the first instrument in the Bard's inventory auto-equipped into the instrument slot. If the difficult in which songs are handled is considered as part of their balance, the power of the Song of Healing needs to be addressed.

Proposed Solutions
The threat of AE MEZ makes Bards a very large target. Bards need a way to defend themselves, which they currently do not possess. Bards have amnesia, with a recast delay that makes it effective for 1-2 interruptions. It also only works vs. archers and casters, and has no effect on melee.

Grant Bards the ability of a Point Blank Area of Effect (PBAE) damage/snare shout, similiar in fashion to the spec DD for Mana Eldritches, Ice Wizards, and Supression Runemasters. The radius for this shout would be 300, and be on 20 second timer. Not only would this provide Bards a defensive ability in RvR, it would also help Bards deal out a little more damage in PvE against the target Blue Con opponents. This would further flesh out what has been called an "anemic" Music line, made more so by the reduction in Mez power.

Altering amnesia to cause the recipient to lose their target would also help and further justify the 5 second recast time. Changing the characteristics of Amnesia would help Bards, by having higher level Lullabys prevent the recipient from retargeting for X amount of time (X increasing with level spec from 1second to 3seconds). Furthermore, if Confusion could also be made into an Amnesia "DoT" to give it greater use in RvR.

Another proposal which will both add to the defense of Bards and viability of Melee Specialization is to allow Bards to chant their Healing and Endurance Songs with either reduced effectiveness or incurred Power Cost. The instruments imbue power into the Bard's Songs. Without instruments, Bard can achieve the similiar effect with less efficiency. Possibilities include reduced effect (acts as 1 song weaker), reduced radius, or mild Power drain. Instruments will still serve their purpose in PvE, but in RvR, Bards will be able to put them away instruments. If the songs are given a power cost, and the bonus of the instrument acts as a "focus" item to reduce to eliminate the cost of the songs.

Summary
Having an AE mez class, with that being the only method in which to project force sets up Bards as large targets without the corresponding ability to defend themselves. In essense, we tend to be glorified taxis that have some usefulness near the start of the fight but quickly end up dead halfway through. Those that tend to survive do so by spending the majority of their time either running or hiding their abilities, which effectively removes us from the engagement.

Par Sabotage le 4/6/2002 à 19:02:13 (#1592053)

Tres joli en tout cas tous ces bardes sans armure et avec la meme cape bleue.

Je ne sais pas si c'est vraiment l'endroit pour ouvrir encore cela mais

The threat of AE MEZ makes Bards a very large target. Bards need a way to defend themselves

Si on demande aux joueurs ce qu'ils detestent le plus en rvr il y a fort a parier qu'ils repondent "me faire mezz que j'attaque" et en deuxieme "me faire mezz par un mec qui court 3 fois plus vite que moi pendant que j'essaie de fuire".
Ce qu'il faudrait en comprendre est que le mezz et le deplacement rapide sont des points importants en RvR, sur hibernia le barde possede les deux, je n'appelle pas ca etre sans defense.

Bards are not proportionately rewarded for RvR

Pas plus que le druide pour un root.
Il est aussi exprimé le probleme de l'utilisation des chants en rvr, le meme probleme se pose pour le sentinelle : meme si un groupe restait concentré (ce qui n'est contretement pas du tout le cas) les tanks sont a l'avant, les mages a l'arriere.
Ni les bardes, ni les sentinelles, ni les druides ne gagnent de Rps pour avoir soigné quelqu'un qui etait en combat.
J'ai deja vu un druide (sa reputation est deja assez lamentable pour que je ne le cite pas) preferer venir au cac pour achever un ennemi tout seul plutot que de soigner le guerrier qui se battait deja et qui etait en train de mourir.



Bref Mythic essaie de trouver des solutions pour contenter tout le monde ... mais ce n'est pas facile.

Par Elric le 5/6/2002 à 3:26:10 (#1594994)

La vitesse tes gentil il suffit qu'on m'attaque (meme un miss) ou que j'attaque et la vitesse je l'ai plus.

Les menestrels aussi mezzent d'ailleurs... Oh ben les skalds aussi... Pourtant t'as qu'a voir si ils sont aussi "puissant" que des bardes.

Par Arize ~ Arise le 5/6/2002 à 4:06:15 (#1595065)

hum bon c'est clair que que pour mez faut serréter pis caster , dc si qqn tenvoie un sort ou te tappe bah c mort et pis au passage qd tu mez ou tu dd ça coupe la vitesse . . .
moi je serasi jsute pour le dd de zone autour du barde ET un insntant stun ( cible meme pas de zone ) histoire detre un peu plus tranquille, de plus ne plus voir de notes de musiques autour de nous et enfin que tous nos points qui partent tout seul ds empathie aillent ds Charisme !!
nan mais cest vrai quoi il dirait kwa les magots d'alb si leur points a chak lvl up allaient ds force ? ? :eek:

m'enfin bon autant révé 'aurais déjà changé de jeu d'ici qu'ils aient refait le barde et que goa le mette sur nos server, alors je fais avec et je sers de taxi . . .

Par Seratna le 5/6/2002 à 9:21:43 (#1595448)

Provient du message de Sabotage

Si on demande aux joueurs ce qu'ils detestent le plus en rvr il y a fort a parier qu'ils repondent "me faire mezz que j'attaque" et en deuxieme "me faire mezz par un mec qui court 3 fois plus vite que moi pendant que j'essaie de fuire".
Ce qu'il faudrait en comprendre est que le mezz et le deplacement rapide sont des points importants en RvR, sur hibernia le barde possede les deux, je n'appelle pas ca etre sans defense.

Moi ce ki me fait chier c :
1) les mezz de 5 min. (facon de parler)
2) les insta stun / mezz des menestrel

moi aussi j ai un AoE Mezz ( 32 sec maxi ) ... mais comme le barde me fo du temps pour incanter et c pdt ce temps ke je creve :D (vive l armure en papier :p )